So if I own Majoras Mask on cartridge I get it for free on the Wii?
Assuming you have a dumping device such as this:
And your Wii is modded to allow yourself to run 3rd party, unauthorized applications (which is not an illegal process), then sure, you can 100% legally take your physical N64 cart, copy the data off of it, and play it on your Wii. Nintendo can't do a damn thing to stop you.
We recommend purchasing a replacement copy of the game at a retailer
Why would they tell you to do that if you already own a license to the software?
Oh, they want to have their cake and eat it, who'd have thought?
Because we're in a transition period. I was complaining about this the other day - Microsoft doesn't put up images of old copies of windows to download, but they do with Windows 7 and Windows 8. This is because, only a few years ago, the idea of divorcing a license from the medium was just a concept, but today it's practice. Going forward, I would expect to freely be able to download the data for games I'd already owned. The physical disc itself it becoming rather meaningless, it's just a mode of transmission for the data, no different from downloading it. It's useless without the license.
Correction: under the circumstances outlined, it is probably legal in the US under fair use law (it being an example of format shifting), but remains mostly untested in court.
In the UK, it is not (but neither is ripping a CD to MP3).
Correction: under the circumstances outlined, it is probably legal in the US under fair use law (it being an example of format shifting), but remains mostly untested in court.[/b
In the UK, it is not (but neither is ripping a CD to MP3).
See, this stuff ain't quite simple.
No, it's explicitly allowed and has been tested in court twice, first in Atari vs JS&A group and again in Sega vs MAPHIA, both ruling against Atari and Sega under Title 17, United States Code, article 117. In the Sega vs MAPHIA case, Sega tried a different tactic by evoking the Audio Home Recording Act which prevents breaking copy protection to back up your data if it could potentially reveal a trade secret. Sega argued the physical cart constituted a copy protection. They lost because it was reasoned that
A) The dumping hardware used in the case tried was read-only. Illegal copying and distribution of the game using the dumper is impossible - any claims of impropriety would apply only to the machines that actually break the law (i.e. a cart copier)
The device made no attempt to decrypt the game code. All encryption schemes, all compression algorithms, all obfuscation techniques remained in place. The device legally didn't break any copy protections - any locks on reading or modifying data in place prior to the dumping of the cart remained after the dumping of the cart.
Similarly, depending on the country you live in, you might have more consumer rights with regard to how you can dump your carts. In any case, Retrode produces their dumpers in accordance with the dumpers found legal in both cases, so that they don't accidentally cross a line into legally uncharted territory.
This is precisely why Nintendo ran full page ads in EGM campaigning against the V-Doctor 64 instead of just outright suing the company into oblivion - because what they were doing wasn't illegal and Nintendo had no ground to file suit.
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David_TA fashion yes-man is no good to me.Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered Userregular
I'm not going to argue this further because I know the folly in getting into legal arguments with people about this stuff, but suffice to say the law views the act of dumping a ROM and getting it to function on new hardware to be separate matters, and only one of those is covered by US case law.
In the UK, only the first became strictly legal recently, so the point is moot either way.
I'm not going to argue this further because I know the folly in getting into legal arguments with people about this stuff, but suffice to say the law views the act of dumping a ROM and getting it to function on new hardware to be separate matters, and only one of those is covered by US case law.
In the UK, only the first became strictly legal recently, so the point is moot either way.
Well one last thing to add directly - the retro doesn't even need to shift formats, it has a secondary mode to read without dumping. a compatible emulator can use the device to examine the cart in real time, as though it was extended hardware, without ever copying or reproducing the game. A special copy of Gens being developed takes advantage of this. A compatible emulator on the Wii would have even firmer legal grounds to stand upon.
To sum up this newer, untested argument - it's like being able to literally insert a cassette tape into your CD player. That's not format shifting.
So I guess we're ignoring the elephant in the room that, regardless of the legal status of backing up your disc based games, the entire act is rendered impossible anyways?
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
So I guess we're ignoring the elephant in the room that, regardless of the legal status of backing up your disc based games, the entire act is rendered impossible anyways?
...it's not impossible. Hence the post - to show you consumer-grade solutions that are readily available that you can legally use.
EDIT: OH. You mean on the xbox one specifically. Well the line of conversation came from incredulous posts asking (essentially) if format shifting was even logistically possible prior to now. I.E. "we couldn't do this before, so why does it matter that we can't do it now?"
for what it's worth, and I've repeated it through this thread several times - the actual DRM itself I don't have much of a problem with. Do I enjoy it? Naw. But I don't think DRM in and of itself is digusting, provided it's the correct DRM. Microsoft's DRM solution doesn't sound that awful to me.
The really awful parts of the Xbox ONe, the parts that repulse me, are the ones that aren't quite as up in the air. The required re-authentication checks, the always running camera. Stuff like that. That I don't mind DRM doesn't mean that I want to have to prove my digital rights every single day, and the always-running camera terrifies me in an Orwellian way.
Why the fuck are you talking about shit like PlugIn 64? This isn't even a piracy thing, it's a huge derail.
Well the line of conversation came from incredulous posts asking (essentially) if format shifting was even logistically possible prior to now. I.E. "we couldn't do this before, so why does it matter that we can't do it now?"
It's not a huge derail, it's pretty pertinent to the issue of what digital rights we already have. It was brought up because people are questioning real-world examples of digital rights management from physical media. I'm showing that nothing has changed. The line of reasoning is directly above you.
So I guess we're ignoring the elephant in the room that, regardless of the legal status of backing up your disc based games, the entire act is rendered impossible anyways?
...it's not impossible. Hence the post - to show you consumer-grade solutions that are readily available that you can legally use.
EDIT: OH. You mean on the xbox one specifically. Well the line of conversation came from incredulous posts asking (essentially) if format shifting was even logistically possible prior to now. I.E. "we couldn't do this before, so why does it matter that we can't do it now?"
for what it's worth, and I've repeated it through this thread several times - the actual DRM itself I don't have much of a problem with. Do I enjoy it? Naw. But I don't think DRM in and of itself is digusting, provided it's the correct DRM. Microsoft's DRM solution doesn't sound that awful to me.
The really awful parts of the Xbox ONe, the parts that repulse me, are the ones that aren't quite as up in the air. The required re-authentication checks, the always running camera. Stuff like that. That I don't mind DRM doesn't mean that I want to have to prove my digital rights every single day, and the always-running camera terrifies me in an Orwellian way.
Functionally impossible for the normal average user.
To put it another way: Making a copy of the disc is easy. Playing that copy is an entirely other matter.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I want to pull out a game I enjoyed 10 years prior and play it. Maybe 20 years. I have been able to do that with every video game up until recently.
I want to enjoy a game that I paid $50-$60 whenever I damned well please. I have been able to do that with every video game up until recently.
The way things are going, this next generation signifies the complete and utter destruction of playing a video game from a previous generation.
Servers will be shut off, companies' licensing contracts will expire, hard drives will fail, people's accounts will be hacked/banned/rendered unusable, and you will not be able to play any game you have the actual disc for. Microsoft has given us numerous examples of "hey, new system/OS/device, nothing is compatible!", so why in hell would you believe you'll be able to play a game you paid for a few years later when Microsoft has complete and total control of how you access it, along with every other form of media in your house, and deems the server/call home/internet is no longer profitable enough to suit their needs?
This is not about convenience, it's not about piracy, it's not about anything beyond giving Microsoft complete and total control of every aspect of media that enters your house. As the gatekeeper, they will make all the money.
Your private/consumer rights are a speedbump on the track that is leading them to cartoon-villian levels of monopolization, and anyone who gives them money is saying "Yes, I will step aside and allow you to control every aspect of entertainment for me."
It's wrong, anyone who says anything positive about this is wrong, and the only reason we've let it go this far is because people bitch every time their rights are violated, then still hand over their money to the person violating their rights.
Stop it. Quit being stupid, and quit paying people to violate my rights because you're ok with them violating yours.
When given the option, choose to spend your money elsewhere. Microsoft will make nothing but My Little Pony porn if that's what the market wants. The only reason they're doing this is because you, the same people who bitch about online passes, non-transferrable media, having a half hour of unskippable commercials on dvds you paid $20 for, etc. give them enough money to make a profit, ensuring the company that this type of crap is not only acceptable, but profitable.
Quit blooblooing about game companies not making enough money, needing to support them, etc. That's not our job. Our job is to buy quality products that we feel will enrich our lives at a price that we feel is fair. All this entitlement from the companies, treating their customers as hostile thieves, bypassing consumer rights, etc. is not how to make a product. Quit feeding them, and we will get what we want at a price that we want.
Jesus, we were all on this same site a little over half a decade ago, unanimously reaming Betheda for $6 horse armor. We had thread after thread raging over Sony having Gran Turismo's 100+ cars unlockable for $1 each. It was absurd, even evil, to charge people for content already in the game that they paid for. Fast forward to today, and everyone has accepted it to the point where the examples we were going into cardiac arrest about then are absolutely mild compared to the shit nowadays.
The worst thing is, Sony is going to do the exact same thing that Microsoft is catching flak over. EA wouldn't get rid of online passes if it wasn't a unilateral decision to take away all of our rights as consumers. With all this raging going on about Xbone, wouldn't you think Sony would have made a statement saying "Hey, we love our customers! We won't fuck you over like those guys! PS4 fo lyfe, yo!"?
The reason they haven't, and the reason every Sony spokesman gives nebulous or vague comments concerning this is because they're going to do the exact same thing.
Don't let them. I'm not. I didn't buy a PS3 because I wasn't going to pay $600 for $200 hardware with a Blu-ray player in it so Sony could win the next media war, which they did specifically because of the people paying to fight Sony's war. I also didn't like that Sony was blatantly calling PS2 fans morons. I have a PS3 now, but I paid a quarter of that price later down the road, and the games are cheap as hell.
Every apologist who tries to justify and allows companies to run rampant over our rights is not only ruining this industry, but is setting precedent for all companies everywhere to screw us just a little bit more. Quit letting it happen.
I've been playing video games longer than most of you have been alive. It's shit like this that is continuously souring me on one of my favorite hobbies. I still bust out systems which still work 30+ years later, and still enjoy them. Justifying this type of crap that Microsoft (and soon, Sony) is feeding you is only guaranteeing you will not be able to do the same when you are older.
So I guess we're ignoring the elephant in the room that, regardless of the legal status of backing up your disc based games, the entire act is rendered impossible anyways?
...it's not impossible. Hence the post - to show you consumer-grade solutions that are readily available that you can legally use.
EDIT: OH. You mean on the xbox one specifically. Well the line of conversation came from incredulous posts asking (essentially) if format shifting was even logistically possible prior to now. I.E. "we couldn't do this before, so why does it matter that we can't do it now?"
for what it's worth, and I've repeated it through this thread several times - the actual DRM itself I don't have much of a problem with. Do I enjoy it? Naw. But I don't think DRM in and of itself is digusting, provided it's the correct DRM. Microsoft's DRM solution doesn't sound that awful to me.
The really awful parts of the Xbox ONe, the parts that repulse me, are the ones that aren't quite as up in the air. The required re-authentication checks, the always running camera. Stuff like that. That I don't mind DRM doesn't mean that I want to have to prove my digital rights every single day, and the always-running camera terrifies me in an Orwellian way.
Functionally impossible for the normal average user.
To put it another way: Making a copy of the disc is easy. Playing that copy is an entirely other matter.
The reason why don't don't write off these sorts of rights based off of how functional they are to the average person is because what is feasible and what isn't changes with time. Of the two cases I cited, one came from the early 80's and one came from 1994 - months after Sega had launced the Sega CD without any copy protection scheme in place to prevent burning back ups, and weeks after commodore had switched from floppy disks to CDs to curb piracy. Because, at that time, CDs were thought to be impossible for the average consumer to reproduce.
Yet both cases explicitly extended to CD formats.
You can apply the same logic to any DRM. Just because they're eliminating the rights that currently only a miniscule number of people can exercise doesn't mean that in 10 years those outlawed practices might not become common place. In the context of Microsoft's TV-focused Xbox One, working through a pass-through port, examining precisely where our format-shifting rights as consumers begin and end is pretty important, even if, the idea that one should be allowed to record HDTV isn't viable for most people because a Happauge HDPVR is prohibitively expensive right now.
I don't understand this 'always on' camera thing. Is it not possible to simply turn on and navigate the xbone with the power button and controller?
you can, but the camera is still rolling and listening at all times. Really, you never turn off the xbox, you just suspend it. That's how come you can say "Xbox, turn on" and it springs to life - because it's not off, and the camera is still on and listening at all times.
Microsoft already said the Kinect must be connected for the Xbox to operate. I'm willing to bet you absolutely can navigate the menus with a controller, and maybe functionally, there is no reason you need a camera watching you do this. Except it's required, because Microsoft says so.
I don't understand this 'always on' camera thing. Is it not possible to simply turn on and navigate the xbone with the power button and controller?
you can, but the camera is still rolling and listening at all times. Really, you never turn off the xbox, you just suspend it. That's how come you can say "Xbox, turn on" and it springs to life - because it's not off, and the camera is still on and listening at all times.
Microsoft already said the Kinect must be connected for the Xbox to operate. I'm willing to bet you absolutely can navigate the menus with a controller, and maybe functionally, there is no reason you need a camera watching you do this. Except it's required, because Microsoft says so.
I think it's so the camera doesn't have to constantly rescan your body like the old Kinect.
Still no excuse why you can't just play without it entirely.
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
presumably, nope. Microsoft has confirmed that the Kinect patent for visual DRM is being applied to the Xbox One.
Under the scenario put forth in the patent, the Kinect will watch when you view media to monitor that you're not exceeding the license limit. So say you buy a movie and only 3 people can watch it, and you have 4 people in the room. Kinect would suspend the movie and inform you that either one person must remove themselves or you have to purchase an additional license to continue watching the movie.
Coupling that with another claim heard from microsoft a while back - that kinect would automatically suspend playback when it didn't see anybody in the room because you had "gotten up and walked off" and you can see that simply circumventing the kinect isn't possible. Plus, all that stuff about your account being logged in and tied to kinect simply recognizing you, and kinect following your controller through your hands and stuff. I just don't think it'll be as simple as putting duct tape over the sensors.
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
well, maybe. there are already reports that voice commands only work if the kinect recognizes an "engaged" user. that is, in front of the camera, ready to go so it can auto-log you in
I think there would be outright rebellion if that was the case
Well, you're kinda witnessing it. I seriously wonder what will happen when word of "the liberal media" sneaking trojan horse, always connected, always online cameras into our god fearing, decent American homes reaches the ears of conservative shock-jock radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh. I think those types are going to raise a huge stink.
Or they should if they're not massive hypocrites with regards to their political positions, which they've demonstrated time and time again that they are.
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
presumably, nope. Microsoft has confirmed that the Kinect patent for visual DRM is being applied to the Xbox One.
This link is hardly convincing on its own. The latest update also has Microsoft specifically confirming nothing except that applying for a patent doesn't mean it will definitely be used.
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
presumably, nope. Microsoft has confirmed that the Kinect patent for visual DRM is being applied to the Xbox One.
Under the scenario put forth in the patent, the Kinect will watch when you view media to monitor that you're not exceeding the license limit. So say you buy a movie and only 3 people can watch it, and you have 4 people in the room. Kinect would suspend the movie and inform you that either one person must remove themselves or you have to purchase an additional license to continue watching the movie.
Coupling that with another claim heard from microsoft a while back - that kinect would automatically suspend playback when it didn't see anybody in the room because you had "gotten up and walked off" and you can see that simply circumventing the kinect isn't possible. Plus, all that stuff about your account being logged in and tied to kinect simply recognizing you, and kinect following your controller through your hands and stuff. I just don't think it'll be as simple as putting duct tape over the sensors.
what?
in that article you link they quote microsoft as saying "Microsoft regularly applies for and receives patents as part of its business practice; not all patents applied for or received will be incorporated into a Microsoft product."
Is backwards compatibility really such a big thing? I mean, to me, the large majority of consoles I've owned(which is a lot... My parents were gamers when I was young) haven't had it. The only console that has it this gen is the WiiU, and ps3 is experimenting with streaming but we'll see if it works out. I'm no fan of the Xbone, but really... Xbox has never been backwards compatible, it seems a bit silly to me that its expected now, especially due to the architecture change.
On a side note, I think either Microsoft or Sony has a huge opportunity to basically plug in more gamers to their systems. Due to both being x86, I wonder how hard it would be to port over some PC only games to the system. Especially big F2P games like League of Legends, Planetside2, perhaps Hawken, etc. Some of them would need KB&M, but I would be shocked if either didn't support them through usb.
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
presumably, nope. Microsoft has confirmed that the Kinect patent for visual DRM is being applied to the Xbox One.
This link is hardly convincing on its own. The latest update also has Microsoft specifically confirming nothing except that applying for a patent doesn't mean it will definitely be used.
Hence, "presumably." This is sort of fears Microsoft should rush out to quell immediately if they aren't grounded in reality. Silence only makes fears grow.
in that article you link they quote microsoft as saying "Microsoft regularly applies for and receives patents as part of its business practice; not all patents applied for or received will be incorporated into a Microsoft product."
that's not confirmation
To address the question of the age of the patent. Yes, the patent is old. But we have been told by UK industry sources within the last month that this system will be implemented on Xbox One.
And again, I didn't say it was confirmed. I said it's presumed.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
presumably, nope. Microsoft has confirmed that the Kinect patent for visual DRM is being applied to the Xbox One.
This link is hardly convincing on its own. The latest update also has Microsoft specifically confirming nothing except that applying for a patent doesn't mean it will definitely be used.
Hence, "presumably." This is sort of fears Microsoft should rush out to quell immediately if they aren't grounded in reality. Silence only makes fears grow.
Adding one word to cover your ass doesn't count for much when you're using a link that gives us no useful information in order to drive discussion. I want to keep tabs on this thread but I'm having a harder time justifying it when it's full of baseless speculation.
Is backwards compatibility really such a big thing? I mean, to me, the large majority of consoles I've owned(which is a lot... My parents were gamers when I was young) haven't had it. The only console that has it this gen is the WiiU, and ps3 is experimenting with streaming but we'll see if it works out. I'm no fan of the Xbone, but really... Xbox has never been backwards compatible, it seems a bit silly to me that its expected now, especially due to the architecture change.
On a side note, I think either Microsoft or Sony has a huge opportunity to basically plug in more gamers to their systems. Due to both being x86, I wonder how hard it would be to port over some PC only games to the system. Especially big F2P games like League of Legends, Planetside2, perhaps Hawken, etc. Some of them would need KB&M, but I would be shocked if either didn't support them through usb.
it is to me .... if my wii breaks (lawl) It'll be nice to not have to buy a new or used one to play my 40+ wii games
Is backwards compatibility really such a big thing? I mean, to me, the large majority of consoles I've owned(which is a lot... My parents were gamers when I was young) haven't had it. The only console that has it this gen is the WiiU, and ps3 is experimenting with streaming but we'll see if it works out. I'm no fan of the Xbone, but really... Xbox has never been backwards compatible, it seems a bit silly to me that its expected now, especially due to the architecture change.
To me? No, it's not. I appreciate hardware redundancy in case older stuff breaks (i.e. if my PS2 breaks, I can still play my games on my PS3) but my collecting tendencies means that I'll inherently have access to my older hardware anyways.
Furthermore, I believe such a break is necessary going forward. Microsoft, and sony, were faced with two options - continue their old, irregular, unsupported semi-proprietary processors to maintain backwards compatibility, or switch over to an incredibly dominant standard that has displayed remarkable versatility and resiliency. I'd assume that both Microsoft and Sony would expect, even if analysts disagree, that there will be another hardware generation beyond this one, and are readying themselves to maintain future backwards compatibility. I wouldn't buy a PS4 to play PS3 games, I'd buy it to play PS4 games.
I'm not the typical game player, though.
On a side note, I think either Microsoft or Sony has a huge opportunity to basically plug in more gamers to their systems. Due to both being x86, I wonder how hard it would be to port over some PC only games to the system. Especially big F2P games like League of Legends, Planetside2, perhaps Hawken, etc. Some of them would need KB&M, but I would be shocked if either didn't support them through usb.
Well there is also the operating system to consider, the apis and libraries used, that sort of thing. But yes, this is assumed to be a major perk of switching to the x86 standard. Standardization is a good thing, usually, for reasons like this.
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Assuming you have a dumping device such as this:
And your Wii is modded to allow yourself to run 3rd party, unauthorized applications (which is not an illegal process), then sure, you can 100% legally take your physical N64 cart, copy the data off of it, and play it on your Wii. Nintendo can't do a damn thing to stop you.
MS are the most expensive at $20 plus tax
EA charge £7.50 for PC discs and £10.00 for console discs
Activision charge £12.00
Ubisoft charge $15 for current gen consoles and $10 for PC and older gen
Nintendo won't even replace them if they're over 90 days old, their website just tells you to buy a new copy;
Why would they tell you to do that if you already own a license to the software?
Oh, they want to have their cake and eat it, who'd have thought?
Also, is that PlugIn64 really legal?
Because it's nobody's responsibility to ensure that you have a backup copy of their software?
Various retailers have insurance plans where you can pay them a couple bucks "in case shit." So you can get a replacement if you need it.
Because we're in a transition period. I was complaining about this the other day - Microsoft doesn't put up images of old copies of windows to download, but they do with Windows 7 and Windows 8. This is because, only a few years ago, the idea of divorcing a license from the medium was just a concept, but today it's practice. Going forward, I would expect to freely be able to download the data for games I'd already owned. The physical disc itself it becoming rather meaningless, it's just a mode of transmission for the data, no different from downloading it. It's useless without the license.
Yes.
In the UK, it is not (but neither is ripping a CD to MP3).
See, this stuff ain't quite simple.
No, it's explicitly allowed and has been tested in court twice, first in Atari vs JS&A group and again in Sega vs MAPHIA, both ruling against Atari and Sega under Title 17, United States Code, article 117. In the Sega vs MAPHIA case, Sega tried a different tactic by evoking the Audio Home Recording Act which prevents breaking copy protection to back up your data if it could potentially reveal a trade secret. Sega argued the physical cart constituted a copy protection. They lost because it was reasoned that
A) The dumping hardware used in the case tried was read-only. Illegal copying and distribution of the game using the dumper is impossible - any claims of impropriety would apply only to the machines that actually break the law (i.e. a cart copier)
Similarly, depending on the country you live in, you might have more consumer rights with regard to how you can dump your carts. In any case, Retrode produces their dumpers in accordance with the dumpers found legal in both cases, so that they don't accidentally cross a line into legally uncharted territory.
This is precisely why Nintendo ran full page ads in EGM campaigning against the V-Doctor 64 instead of just outright suing the company into oblivion - because what they were doing wasn't illegal and Nintendo had no ground to file suit.
Us Europeans are the unhostestets.
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/05/24/report-xbox-one-used-games-will-not-require-a-fee-will-require-authentication-checks.aspx
"Indirect unofficial Microsoft sources"
:-\
In the UK, only the first became strictly legal recently, so the point is moot either way.
Well one last thing to add directly - the retro doesn't even need to shift formats, it has a secondary mode to read without dumping. a compatible emulator can use the device to examine the cart in real time, as though it was extended hardware, without ever copying or reproducing the game. A special copy of Gens being developed takes advantage of this. A compatible emulator on the Wii would have even firmer legal grounds to stand upon.
To sum up this newer, untested argument - it's like being able to literally insert a cassette tape into your CD player. That's not format shifting.
...it's not impossible. Hence the post - to show you consumer-grade solutions that are readily available that you can legally use.
EDIT: OH. You mean on the xbox one specifically. Well the line of conversation came from incredulous posts asking (essentially) if format shifting was even logistically possible prior to now. I.E. "we couldn't do this before, so why does it matter that we can't do it now?"
for what it's worth, and I've repeated it through this thread several times - the actual DRM itself I don't have much of a problem with. Do I enjoy it? Naw. But I don't think DRM in and of itself is digusting, provided it's the correct DRM. Microsoft's DRM solution doesn't sound that awful to me.
The really awful parts of the Xbox ONe, the parts that repulse me, are the ones that aren't quite as up in the air. The required re-authentication checks, the always running camera. Stuff like that. That I don't mind DRM doesn't mean that I want to have to prove my digital rights every single day, and the always-running camera terrifies me in an Orwellian way.
It's not a huge derail, it's pretty pertinent to the issue of what digital rights we already have. It was brought up because people are questioning real-world examples of digital rights management from physical media. I'm showing that nothing has changed. The line of reasoning is directly above you.
Functionally impossible for the normal average user.
To put it another way: Making a copy of the disc is easy. Playing that copy is an entirely other matter.
I want to enjoy a game that I paid $50-$60 whenever I damned well please. I have been able to do that with every video game up until recently.
The way things are going, this next generation signifies the complete and utter destruction of playing a video game from a previous generation.
Servers will be shut off, companies' licensing contracts will expire, hard drives will fail, people's accounts will be hacked/banned/rendered unusable, and you will not be able to play any game you have the actual disc for. Microsoft has given us numerous examples of "hey, new system/OS/device, nothing is compatible!", so why in hell would you believe you'll be able to play a game you paid for a few years later when Microsoft has complete and total control of how you access it, along with every other form of media in your house, and deems the server/call home/internet is no longer profitable enough to suit their needs?
This is not about convenience, it's not about piracy, it's not about anything beyond giving Microsoft complete and total control of every aspect of media that enters your house. As the gatekeeper, they will make all the money.
Your private/consumer rights are a speedbump on the track that is leading them to cartoon-villian levels of monopolization, and anyone who gives them money is saying "Yes, I will step aside and allow you to control every aspect of entertainment for me."
It's wrong, anyone who says anything positive about this is wrong, and the only reason we've let it go this far is because people bitch every time their rights are violated, then still hand over their money to the person violating their rights.
Stop it. Quit being stupid, and quit paying people to violate my rights because you're ok with them violating yours.
When given the option, choose to spend your money elsewhere. Microsoft will make nothing but My Little Pony porn if that's what the market wants. The only reason they're doing this is because you, the same people who bitch about online passes, non-transferrable media, having a half hour of unskippable commercials on dvds you paid $20 for, etc. give them enough money to make a profit, ensuring the company that this type of crap is not only acceptable, but profitable.
Quit blooblooing about game companies not making enough money, needing to support them, etc. That's not our job. Our job is to buy quality products that we feel will enrich our lives at a price that we feel is fair. All this entitlement from the companies, treating their customers as hostile thieves, bypassing consumer rights, etc. is not how to make a product. Quit feeding them, and we will get what we want at a price that we want.
Jesus, we were all on this same site a little over half a decade ago, unanimously reaming Betheda for $6 horse armor. We had thread after thread raging over Sony having Gran Turismo's 100+ cars unlockable for $1 each. It was absurd, even evil, to charge people for content already in the game that they paid for. Fast forward to today, and everyone has accepted it to the point where the examples we were going into cardiac arrest about then are absolutely mild compared to the shit nowadays.
The worst thing is, Sony is going to do the exact same thing that Microsoft is catching flak over. EA wouldn't get rid of online passes if it wasn't a unilateral decision to take away all of our rights as consumers. With all this raging going on about Xbone, wouldn't you think Sony would have made a statement saying "Hey, we love our customers! We won't fuck you over like those guys! PS4 fo lyfe, yo!"?
The reason they haven't, and the reason every Sony spokesman gives nebulous or vague comments concerning this is because they're going to do the exact same thing.
Don't let them. I'm not. I didn't buy a PS3 because I wasn't going to pay $600 for $200 hardware with a Blu-ray player in it so Sony could win the next media war, which they did specifically because of the people paying to fight Sony's war. I also didn't like that Sony was blatantly calling PS2 fans morons. I have a PS3 now, but I paid a quarter of that price later down the road, and the games are cheap as hell.
Every apologist who tries to justify and allows companies to run rampant over our rights is not only ruining this industry, but is setting precedent for all companies everywhere to screw us just a little bit more. Quit letting it happen.
I've been playing video games longer than most of you have been alive. It's shit like this that is continuously souring me on one of my favorite hobbies. I still bust out systems which still work 30+ years later, and still enjoy them. Justifying this type of crap that Microsoft (and soon, Sony) is feeding you is only guaranteeing you will not be able to do the same when you are older.
The reason why don't don't write off these sorts of rights based off of how functional they are to the average person is because what is feasible and what isn't changes with time. Of the two cases I cited, one came from the early 80's and one came from 1994 - months after Sega had launced the Sega CD without any copy protection scheme in place to prevent burning back ups, and weeks after commodore had switched from floppy disks to CDs to curb piracy. Because, at that time, CDs were thought to be impossible for the average consumer to reproduce.
Yet both cases explicitly extended to CD formats.
You can apply the same logic to any DRM. Just because they're eliminating the rights that currently only a miniscule number of people can exercise doesn't mean that in 10 years those outlawed practices might not become common place. In the context of Microsoft's TV-focused Xbox One, working through a pass-through port, examining precisely where our format-shifting rights as consumers begin and end is pretty important, even if, the idea that one should be allowed to record HDTV isn't viable for most people because a Happauge HDPVR is prohibitively expensive right now.
you can, but the camera is still rolling and listening at all times. Really, you never turn off the xbox, you just suspend it. That's how come you can say "Xbox, turn on" and it springs to life - because it's not off, and the camera is still on and listening at all times.
Microsoft already said the Kinect must be connected for the Xbox to operate. I'm willing to bet you absolutely can navigate the menus with a controller, and maybe functionally, there is no reason you need a camera watching you do this. Except it's required, because Microsoft says so.
oh well, at least you can just tape over it or turn it around
I think it's so the camera doesn't have to constantly rescan your body like the old Kinect.
Still no excuse why you can't just play without it entirely.
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presumably, nope. Microsoft has confirmed that the Kinect patent for visual DRM is being applied to the Xbox One.
Under the scenario put forth in the patent, the Kinect will watch when you view media to monitor that you're not exceeding the license limit. So say you buy a movie and only 3 people can watch it, and you have 4 people in the room. Kinect would suspend the movie and inform you that either one person must remove themselves or you have to purchase an additional license to continue watching the movie.
Coupling that with another claim heard from microsoft a while back - that kinect would automatically suspend playback when it didn't see anybody in the room because you had "gotten up and walked off" and you can see that simply circumventing the kinect isn't possible. Plus, all that stuff about your account being logged in and tied to kinect simply recognizing you, and kinect following your controller through your hands and stuff. I just don't think it'll be as simple as putting duct tape over the sensors.
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id put good money on that making your xbo not function, but thats just me.
Well, you're kinda witnessing it. I seriously wonder what will happen when word of "the liberal media" sneaking trojan horse, always connected, always online cameras into our god fearing, decent American homes reaches the ears of conservative shock-jock radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh. I think those types are going to raise a huge stink.
Or they should if they're not massive hypocrites with regards to their political positions, which they've demonstrated time and time again that they are.
I can't remember where I read it, but I saw that the distance threshold has been reduced to 3 feet.
xbox one! not for the whole family!
it would be console suicide to expect people to pay extra to have their friends watch a movie on an xbox
This link is hardly convincing on its own. The latest update also has Microsoft specifically confirming nothing except that applying for a patent doesn't mean it will definitely be used.
what?
in that article you link they quote microsoft as saying "Microsoft regularly applies for and receives patents as part of its business practice; not all patents applied for or received will be incorporated into a Microsoft product."
that's not confirmation
On a side note, I think either Microsoft or Sony has a huge opportunity to basically plug in more gamers to their systems. Due to both being x86, I wonder how hard it would be to port over some PC only games to the system. Especially big F2P games like League of Legends, Planetside2, perhaps Hawken, etc. Some of them would need KB&M, but I would be shocked if either didn't support them through usb.
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Hence, "presumably." This is sort of fears Microsoft should rush out to quell immediately if they aren't grounded in reality. Silence only makes fears grow.
And again, I didn't say it was confirmed. I said it's presumed.
Adding one word to cover your ass doesn't count for much when you're using a link that gives us no useful information in order to drive discussion. I want to keep tabs on this thread but I'm having a harder time justifying it when it's full of baseless speculation.
it is to me .... if my wii breaks (lawl) It'll be nice to not have to buy a new or used one to play my 40+ wii games
Huh? It's the exact opposite. Your games will be as permanent as the hardware they play on and the account you keep with X company.
It's as permanent as your Steam directory of games which is pretty fucking permanent as these things go.
Shit, this makes games EASIER to find since they'll be on a server somewhere and you don't need to track down a disk.
This is MS switching everything to a Digital Download gaming paradigm while still keeping the disks around as a way to distribute the files.
To me? No, it's not. I appreciate hardware redundancy in case older stuff breaks (i.e. if my PS2 breaks, I can still play my games on my PS3) but my collecting tendencies means that I'll inherently have access to my older hardware anyways.
Furthermore, I believe such a break is necessary going forward. Microsoft, and sony, were faced with two options - continue their old, irregular, unsupported semi-proprietary processors to maintain backwards compatibility, or switch over to an incredibly dominant standard that has displayed remarkable versatility and resiliency. I'd assume that both Microsoft and Sony would expect, even if analysts disagree, that there will be another hardware generation beyond this one, and are readying themselves to maintain future backwards compatibility. I wouldn't buy a PS4 to play PS3 games, I'd buy it to play PS4 games.
I'm not the typical game player, though.
Well there is also the operating system to consider, the apis and libraries used, that sort of thing. But yes, this is assumed to be a major perk of switching to the x86 standard. Standardization is a good thing, usually, for reasons like this.