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[Discworld] Who Watches The Watchmen In The Watch?

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 13
    klemming wrote: »
    It's not that malicious, though. He's just someone who learnt about other races and cultures to the level of primary school learning about a country (everything you need to know summarised in one cartoon picture. Africa = tribes with spears, Egypt = Pyramids and Walking Like An Egyption, Japan = everyone wears kimonos, etc) and never bothered to learn any more than that because he didn't need to.

    Yeah, Colon is the guy who was told that absolutely outrageous stuff about folks not like him and just believed it, because stupid. Not like the actively malicious stuff, mostly, but the "Oh they're totally different than us!" stuff. It is, generally, not really mean spirited but he can shade that way depending on the current mood. He kinda feels like an "uneducated masses" stand in.

    It is kind of funny as Colon has practically no redeeming qualities through most of the book. His lack of active malice is about the nicest thing you can say about him. Yet he doesn't tend to inspire hatred from most folks I know. Kinda weird.
    It's probably because we all know one

    I guess it's also because Colon is trying to do the right thing, even when he is too stupid and ignorant to know what it is, is used for comic relief, and, most importantly, is not presented as a model or someone worth emulating. I don't have the book with me, but Vetinari resumes Colon and his role perfectly in Jingo.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Also I know it's been said but just fuckin

    cast Charles Dance as Vetinari.

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  • Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    Drascin wrote: »
    And doesn't Vimes chew him out for it pretty early on in the series? Over a comment about... I want to say dwarves? Klatchians?

    Honestly, I don't see how you do Nobby without Colon, and without those two it's barely a Watch series at all.

    Colon gets a lot of moments to progressively unlearn his racism. He starts racist against damn near fucking everything, but via interacting with people he ends up losing pretty much all his racism against dwarves, trolls, klatchians, and etcetera.

    Hell, Vimes starts up pretty racist against a lot of classes. He gets multiple callouts about dwarves, trolls, and undead. Even Carrot needs Angua to yell at him about female dwarves. Prejudice is kind of a theme in Watch books, is what I'm getting at.

    Vimes says he doesn’t like dwarfs much, but then goes on to say he doesn’t like Trolls or Humans much either.

    I think that theme is repeated whenever he interacts with a new species.

    However he does strongly believe that when it comes to the law/justice everyone should be equal. His real hatred is for those who believe themselves to be above the law.

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  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Also I know it's been said but just fuckin

    cast Charles Dance as Vetinari.

    They already did.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    And doesn't Vimes chew him out for it pretty early on in the series? Over a comment about... I want to say dwarves? Klatchians?

    Honestly, I don't see how you do Nobby without Colon, and without those two it's barely a Watch series at all.

    Colon gets a lot of moments to progressively unlearn his racism. He starts racist against damn near fucking everything, but via interacting with people he ends up losing pretty much all his racism against dwarves, trolls, klatchians, and etcetera.

    Hell, Vimes starts up pretty racist against a lot of classes. He gets multiple callouts about dwarves, trolls, and undead. Even Carrot needs Angua to yell at him about female dwarves. Prejudice is kind of a theme in Watch books, is what I'm getting at.

    Vimes says he doesn’t like dwarfs much, but then goes on to say he doesn’t like Trolls or Humans much either.

    I think that theme is repeated whenever he interacts with a new species.

    However he does strongly believe that when it comes to the law/justice everyone should be equal. His real hatred is for those who believe themselves to be above the law.

    Vimes is less of a racist than he is a misanthrope.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    And doesn't Vimes chew him out for it pretty early on in the series? Over a comment about... I want to say dwarves? Klatchians?

    Honestly, I don't see how you do Nobby without Colon, and without those two it's barely a Watch series at all.

    Colon gets a lot of moments to progressively unlearn his racism. He starts racist against damn near fucking everything, but via interacting with people he ends up losing pretty much all his racism against dwarves, trolls, klatchians, and etcetera.

    Hell, Vimes starts up pretty racist against a lot of classes. He gets multiple callouts about dwarves, trolls, and undead. Even Carrot needs Angua to yell at him about female dwarves. Prejudice is kind of a theme in Watch books, is what I'm getting at.

    Vimes says he doesn’t like dwarfs much, but then goes on to say he doesn’t like Trolls or Humans much either.

    I think that theme is repeated whenever he interacts with a new species.

    However he does strongly believe that when it comes to the law/justice everyone should be equal. His real hatred is for those who believe themselves to be above the law.

    Vimes is less of a racist than he is a misanthrope.

    Also that fades as he stops being a bitter solitary alcoholic who has nothing in his life.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Also, Vimes hates Vampires.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, Vimes hates Vampires.

    Yeah, but they all suck.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Bursar wrote: »
    I think the real question to ask is who they're casting as CMOT Dibbler.

    It ain't Ankh-Morpork without them sausages inna bun, and we all know it.

    Bruce Campbell, duh.

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  • ChiselphaneChiselphane Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, Vimes hates Vampires.

    And even then, he still gives one a chance despite not trusting her (and she warrants that lack as it ends up she was spying), and then STILL hires her onto the Watch afterwards.

  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Also I know it's been said but just fuckin

    cast Charles Dance as Vetinari.

    They already did.

    I know there are people who have issues with the Going Postal adaptation, but Charles Dance was really good as Vetinari. I would be all on board with him reprising the role.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    He's an amazing Vetinari but I always had him with dark hair in my reads :)


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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Also I know it's been said but just fuckin

    cast Charles Dance as Vetinari.

    They already did.

    DO IT AGAIN

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  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    And doesn't Vimes chew him out for it pretty early on in the series? Over a comment about... I want to say dwarves? Klatchians?

    Honestly, I don't see how you do Nobby without Colon, and without those two it's barely a Watch series at all.

    Colon gets a lot of moments to progressively unlearn his racism. He starts racist against damn near fucking everything, but via interacting with people he ends up losing pretty much all his racism against dwarves, trolls, klatchians, and etcetera.

    Hell, Vimes starts up pretty racist against a lot of classes. He gets multiple callouts about dwarves, trolls, and undead. Even Carrot needs Angua to yell at him about female dwarves. Prejudice is kind of a theme in Watch books, is what I'm getting at.

    Vimes says he doesn’t like dwarfs much, but then goes on to say he doesn’t like Trolls or Humans much either.

    I think that theme is repeated whenever he interacts with a new species.

    However he does strongly believe that when it comes to the law/justice everyone should be equal. His real hatred is for those who believe themselves to be above the law.

    Vimes is less of a racist than he is a misanthrope.

    Racism is not a problem on the Discworld, because - what with trolls and dwarfs and so on - speciesism is more interesting. Black and white live in perfect harmony and gang up on green.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Chiwetel Eijifor might make a good Vetinari

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    I would accept him as any character up to and including lady Sybil

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Chiwetel Eijifor might make a good Vetinari

    Or Lance Reddick. I think it was on Wait Wait Don't Tell Me he described himself as frequently being cast as intimidating, vaguely sinister authority figures.

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  • David_TDavid_T A fashion yes-man is no good to me. Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered User regular
    My only problem with Dance is that I always saw Vetinari as younger. I mean, he's about the same age as Vimes and there's some 25 years between Dance and Dormer. Which, acting and all that, but still.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    David_T wrote: »
    My only problem with Dance is that I always saw Vetinari as younger. I mean, he's about the same age as Vimes and there's some 25 years between Dance and Dormer. Which, acting and all that, but still.

    I must have misread, but I always pictured Vetinari as older. Like, in my mind, he's a very father like figure to Vimes (maybe not a nice father, but the one whose study you go to when things need to be straightened out).
    Especially in the later books he seemed to be grooming Vimes as a replacement for himself as the manipulative bastard that keeps the city running.

    But then, it has been entirely too long since I've read Discworld, so I may be remembering wrong... Will have to correct that.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    David_T wrote: »
    My only problem with Dance is that I always saw Vetinari as younger. I mean, he's about the same age as Vimes and there's some 25 years between Dance and Dormer. Which, acting and all that, but still.

    I must have misread, but I always pictured Vetinari as older. Like, in my mind, he's a very father like figure to Vimes (maybe not a nice father, but the one whose study you go to when things need to be straightened out).
    Especially in the later books he seemed to be grooming Vimes as a replacement for himself as the manipulative bastard that keeps the city running.

    But then, it has been entirely too long since I've read Discworld, so I may be remembering wrong... Will have to correct that.

    They were both Young Turks during the Glorious Revolution of the 25th of May.

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  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    David_T wrote: »
    My only problem with Dance is that I always saw Vetinari as younger. I mean, he's about the same age as Vimes and there's some 25 years between Dance and Dormer. Which, acting and all that, but still.

    I must have misread, but I always pictured Vetinari as older. Like, in my mind, he's a very father like figure to Vimes (maybe not a nice father, but the one whose study you go to when things need to be straightened out).
    Especially in the later books he seemed to be grooming Vimes as a replacement for himself as the manipulative bastard that keeps the city running.

    But then, it has been entirely too long since I've read Discworld, so I may be remembering wrong... Will have to correct that.

    They were both Young Turks during the Glorious Revolution of the 25th of May.

    Truth, Justice, Reasonably Priced Love, and a Hard-Boiled Egg.

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  • ChiselphaneChiselphane Registered User regular
    I've always interpreted it as they're similar in age but Vimes has 'aged' more due to how his life has gone, so he comes across older than Vetinari.

    However there is also a an occasional subtle hint that Vetinari is either entertaining or has already entertained taking his relationship with Lady Margolotta a step further, shall we say. In the Fifth Element she bemusedly remarks he should be pretty old by now, and I want to say in Making Money there was something along those lines too. I don't really put much stock in it, I personally think its pretty clear that he's not a vampire, but there a tiny bit of wiggle room.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    He's a character who's oddly ageless

  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! Registered User regular
    It's all that clean living.

    Up at dawn, avoid alcohol, throw three mimes in the scorpion pits a day.

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Bursar wrote: »
    It's all that clean living.

    Up at dawn, avoid alcohol, throw three mimes in the scorpion pits a day.

    "Learn the Words"

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  • David_TDavid_T A fashion yes-man is no good to me. Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered User regular
    I always saw Vetinari as the pendant to that outside hiree by an established company that's 20 years younger than the rest of management and actually knows what he's doing.

    The guild leaders knew what they had with the likes of Mad Lord Snapcase and Homicidal Lord Winder, simple men prone to bouts of excitement, and all of a sudden they have to contend with this new Patrician who's younger than all of them, dreadfully boring by comparison and, worst of all, competent.

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  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    He's an amazing Vetinari but I always had him with dark hair in my reads :)


    Jeremy Irons is Vetinari.

    I'd also take a skinny Ian Mcshane.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    David_T wrote: »
    I always saw Vetinari as the pendant to that outside hiree by an established company that's 20 years younger than the rest of management and actually knows what he's doing.

    The guild leaders knew what they had with the likes of Mad Lord Snapcase and Homicidal Lord Winder, simple men prone to bouts of excitement, and all of a sudden they have to contend with this new Patrician who's younger than all of them, dreadfully boring by comparison and, worst of all, competent.

    It see it much the same. I also reconcile the Fat Patrician from the first few books(Colour of magic up until Mort) as Vetinari playing the part of a stupid fat trust fund kind that was elected as a easy puppet by the Guilds. The kind of malleable young pawn that senior guild leaders could "guide" to make decisions that was to their best interest. A George W Bush Type or a nicer Trump. Aka Mustrum Ridcully as patrician for Ankh Morpork.

    Once in power, he returns to his old diet and one day the guild wakes up and asks themselves who is this tall thin and sinister man in the Oblong Office. Like the Thieves guild had no problem taking advantage of the Fat idiot who legalized them, but now he is talking about how he knows where they live. He probably spends the first few years in office pretending to be manipulated by guilds, arranging for them to think somebody else has manipulated him if he makes a decision they don't like. Until it becomes clear that not only wasn't he dancing to anybody else tune, but he now knows what the Guild leaders want most of all. (Shout out to Order of the Stick's Lord Song).

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited September 14
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    David_T wrote: »
    I always saw Vetinari as the pendant to that outside hiree by an established company that's 20 years younger than the rest of management and actually knows what he's doing.

    The guild leaders knew what they had with the likes of Mad Lord Snapcase and Homicidal Lord Winder, simple men prone to bouts of excitement, and all of a sudden they have to contend with this new Patrician who's younger than all of them, dreadfully boring by comparison and, worst of all, competent.

    It see it much the same. I also reconcile the Fat Patrician from the first few books(Colour of magic up until Mort) as Vetinari playing the part of a stupid fat trust fund kind that was elected as a easy puppet by the Guilds. The kind of malleable young pawn that senior guild leaders could "guide" to make decisions that was to their best interest. A George W Bush Type or a nicer Trump. Aka Mustrum Ridcully as patrician for Ankh Morpork.

    Once in power, he returns to his old diet and one day the guild wakes up and asks themselves who is this tall thin and sinister man in the Oblong Office. Like the Thieves guild had no problem taking advantage of the Fat idiot who legalized them, but now he is talking about how he knows where they live. He probably spends the first few years in office pretending to be manipulated by guilds, arranging for them to think somebody else has manipulated him if he makes a decision they don't like. Until it becomes clear that not only wasn't he dancing to anybody else tune, but he now knows what the Guild leaders want most of all. (Shout out to Order of the Stick's Lord Song).

    I thought the Patrician in the first few books was Lord Snapcase, and then Vetinari... succeeded him in an untold manner?

    Mostly because it made the writing more fun. Same with the Archchancellor no longer being killed off ever semester to make room at the top.

    moniker on
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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    David_T wrote: »
    I always saw Vetinari as the pendant to that outside hiree by an established company that's 20 years younger than the rest of management and actually knows what he's doing.

    The guild leaders knew what they had with the likes of Mad Lord Snapcase and Homicidal Lord Winder, simple men prone to bouts of excitement, and all of a sudden they have to contend with this new Patrician who's younger than all of them, dreadfully boring by comparison and, worst of all, competent.

    It see it much the same. I also reconcile the Fat Patrician from the first few books(Colour of magic up until Mort) as Vetinari playing the part of a stupid fat trust fund kind that was elected as a easy puppet by the Guilds. The kind of malleable young pawn that senior guild leaders could "guide" to make decisions that was to their best interest. A George W Bush Type or a nicer Trump. Aka Mustrum Ridcully as patrician for Ankh Morpork.

    Once in power, he returns to his old diet and one day the guild wakes up and asks themselves who is this tall thin and sinister man in the Oblong Office. Like the Thieves guild had no problem taking advantage of the Fat idiot who legalized them, but now he is talking about how he knows where they live. He probably spends the first few years in office pretending to be manipulated by guilds, arranging for them to think somebody else has manipulated him if he makes a decision they don't like. Until it becomes clear that not only wasn't he dancing to anybody else tune, but he now knows what the Guild leaders want most of all. (Shout out to Order of the Stick's Lord Song).

    I thought the Patrician in the first few books was Lord Snapcase, and then Vetinari... succeeded him in an untold manner?

    Mostly because it made the writing more fun. Same with the Archchancellor no longer being killed off ever semester to make room at the top.

    Pratchett's offical word was that it was Vetinari in all the books, just written by a younger, stupider writer (Or words to those effect) to memory. Personally, i just headcannon it as Vetinari playing the long game initally.

    Also re: Vimes - my take was always that he just hates people... but he's quite fond of individuals (once they're proved they're worth his time). He's on good terms with people like Munstrum, and that would not happen if he wasn't able to see past Munstrum's windbag persona. Plus, look at how he treats AE - Semi-toelrance, plays a prank out of frustration/stress, and when AE steps up and then some? The appropriate form of address is Mister Vimes, AE.

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  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    He's an amazing Vetinari but I always had him with dark hair in my reads :)


    iirc at one point Moist, or maybe Vimes, idly wonders if it's true that Vetinari dyes his hair, and then immediately decides that there is absolutely no way they will ever ask him that question.

    ElvenshaetynicGolden YakShadowenFencingsax
  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! Registered User regular
    He might look very young, and they were wondering if if he dyes his hair white for that elder statesman appearance.

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Paul Kidby's art is so intertwined in my mind with the books now that there are probably some descriptions that I got from the illustrations as much as the text

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    In "adaptations of proven quality" news, The BBC radio adaptations are coming to vinyl

    Kinda makes me want to buy a record player

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